Housing is a key issue for the future of the state, since Rhode Island needs more housing if the state’s economy is going to grow. There are other worrisome signs on the economic front. The iconic toy-maker Hasbro is considering moving its headquarters and hundreds of jobs elsewhere. And the state’s fiscal outlook suggests a return to the perennial deficits that in the past have typically greeted lawmakers at the start of every General Assembly session. So what can be done to accelerate progress on housing? Why does Rhode Island still lack engines of new job growth? And what does a respected housing advocate make of all this as she prepares to leave her longtime job?
Ian Donnis: Welcome back to the Public’s Radio.
Jennifer Hawkins: Thank you very much, Ian.
Donnis: We’re going to focus a lot on housing, but I want to start with a few questions on the economy because the news this week that Pawtucket-based Hasbro is considering moving its headquarters out of Rhode Island. It seems like a reminder of the fragility of Rhode Island’s economy and how efforts have been on for years to create new engines of job growth, but we really haven’t seen that. Why do you think not?
Hawkins: You know, I certainly would not call myself an economic development expert, by a long shot, but, you know, I don’t know, I guess I would say that Rhode Island has built some economic engines. I think, you know, leaning into its value proposition of the green and blue economy is deeply promising. The offshore wind, the ability to look at how we build a workforce who can respond to the influx of money that the state will be getting because of the IRA, and there’s an opportunity to really build a new workforce that can respond to the green jobs that will be coming. So I think that those sectors are emerging here.
I have a close friend who works at Hasbro and he says if it relocates to Boston, he’s going to be looking for another job. And I think that they need to really carefully consider those workforce concerns. Rhode Island is a great place to live. And, you know, that’s why housing prices are going up, right? Because a lot of people understand that Rhode Island’s got a lot to offer. But, from an economic development standpoint, I think we need a lot more people who understand how to install heat pumps. Who know how to, service the new EV charging stations. That’s where I think there’s a lot of growth.
Donnis: Well, let’s shift gears and talk about housing. We’re a couple of years into the state’s effort to confront its housing crisis. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been allocated. Relatively little new housing has been created so far, but the focus certainly has shifted. So, I wonder, how do you evaluate what is working well and what needs improvement?
Hawkins: You know, I wish we could go to the store and buy housing, but it takes a long time to build it. If One Neighborhood Builders can go from ideation to leasing of units in four years, we’re really excited about that timeline. So the fact that the money that the General Assembly very smartly allocated to affordable housing is still not necessarily, you can’t necessarily see all that housing, But it is absolutely in the works.
There’s very few things that Rhode Islanders agree on, right? But I think overwhelmingly, Rhode Islanders understand that we have a crisis of affordable housing. And unlike the 2010 foreclosure crisis, this crisis impacts every community, every income level, every age, and it’s something that there’s a true shared sense that we need to, we need to do more.
Donnis: We see how housing prices have continued to go up and a lot of people are reluctant to sell because they don’t know what they would be able to buy. Do you think these kind of prices are the new normal or do you think there will be a correction at some point that sees a significant reduction?
Hawkins: I think the only way that we will see a significant reduction is if we really increase supply. Often folks cite Austin, Texas, an example where prices finally started to soften and decrease because of the massive influx of additional units. I mean, there’s just really core supply and demand, principles at play here. I know that the Fed just cut its interest rates and everyone is excited that the mortgage, 30 year mortgage is going to come down. I’m worried that that just means there’s going to be more competition for the same very few homes on the market. And so you may save money on the mortgage, but in return, the housing price is going to go up because there’s the competition for that. Those so few units.
Donnis: You mentioned how it can take years to translate money into housing production. If the state stays focused on the housing crisis, how long do you think it’ll take? Take to make a major difference.
Hawkins: Oh, gosh, I wouldn’t even want to try to predict something like that, but you know, it’s something that every single actor in this space has to be pulling in the same direction. Organizations like One Neighborhood Builders, nonprofit affordable developers and our colleagues in this space have a really crucial place, a role to play, but certainly alone, we cannot come close to solving this problem. It requires for-profit developers and builders to also do their part. I mean, I firmly believe that we need to massively increase the supply of housing for all income levels and for all Rhode Islanders. And that means, market rate apartments and affordable apartments. That means small starter homes and other, you know, more other types of housing. And unless we create a glide path for all of these actors to be able to address the housing crisis, I don’t think we’re going to be able to get there.
Donnis: The state has tried to create some more efficiency in the different agencies in government that work on housing. I wonder, do you think enough has been done or is there still too much separate siloing of housing agencies?
Hawkins: I think that the creation of the Department of Housing was very smart and it is long overdue. And I think that there needs to be some more structural changes to give the Department of Housing the authority and resources it needs to really adequately do their job. Housing is a meta issue. Right? So, you know, as the saying is like, so goes Providence as goes the rest of Rhode Island. So goes housing as goes education and economic development, everything else. And so you really need a whole of government approach, but the conductor of that whole of government approach has to rest with the Department of Housing, to set the strategy and policy for the state and to bring, EEOHS –
Donnis: The Executive Office of Health and Human Services.
Hawkins: Thank you, Ian. – and Commerce and all the other agencies to bear because it requires that integrated strategy.
Donnis: Jennifer Hawkins, we spoke recently for a story I did as part of a series by the Public’s Radio on zoning and how that can be an impediment to making progress on the housing crisis. I got some pushback from local municipal officials who feel that zoning is exaggerated as an impediment and they think larger economic and development trends and just the pattern of development over decades had a bigger effect in terms of why things are the way they are and why it’s difficult to move forward. What do you think of that argument?
Hawkins: Yeah, I listened to your story and I definitely heard the critique. I would say if you look at current zoning and current land use, so much of what is built right now would be “nonconforming.” You could not do it again, right? And so what we love about our historic villages, the density and the proximity that could not be built again today, right? And that is because of the zoning that I don’t think it was necessarily all ill intended, right? It’s just, now it’s time to relook at it given the circumstances of today. I do think that municipalities have a very legitimate concern around being prepared for increased density. And I think that the state has an obligation to meet municipalities sort of uniquely where they’re at. And I think that the notion of one size fits all is not correct, right? And we do have to have a very nuanced partnership with the 39 cities and towns to understand what their needs are vis a vis infrastructure and school support and services support. And there there’s different needs that they have, and there has to be a tool of resources the state is able to deploy to work with those municipalities so that they can be part of the solution.
Donnis: Some advocates are promoting the idea of creating a public developer with money from the state to create housing. What do you think of that concept?
Hawkins: You know, I think that the public sector has a really important role to play. I think that I have not studied enough on the topic to really opine, but, you know, just reading that the Department of Housing purchased Charlesgate to you know currently use it as an emergency shelter, but then with the idea of turning eventually into permanent housing, and I think that that is that’s smart. I support that. I support the idea of the public sector in getting involved in strategically purchasing property or getting property, sort of pad ready for housing and if that’s what the public developer model is, I support that.
Donnis: Today marks your last day on the job at One Neighborhood Builders, an agency you’ve led for many years. What made this the right time for you to decide to leave and what are your plans for the future?
Hawkins: Yeah, it was a challenging decision, but I felt like now is right, right? It was, the organization is an incredibly strong place. We have a tremendous leadership in our board of directors. We have strong team members, a really strong bench. We’re financially strong and we’ve got a really strong real estate development pipeline. And so it’s kind of like, yeah. The Police broke up at the top of their game, right? And so, I feel like now’s the time to be able to, you know, I’ve run my course and it’s time to pass the baton off to the next leader who I have complete faith the board will select a really strong new CEO. We have a search firm who’s leading that search and, I’m quite excited to see from my new position of stepping back where the organization goes in the future.
Donnis: I appreciate the 80s pop reference. What are your plans for the future?
Hawkins: Well, immediately it’s going to be taking a break catching up on some sleep and some home projects. But you know, I’m having a variety of conversations and I know I’m committed to staying in the housing justice space and we will see where I end up.
Donnis: And what is your top advice to whoever it succeeds you?
Hawkins: I would say that, you just have to have that kind of strong moral compass, if you will. That there’s a lot of folks who will try to give you advice or tell you you’re doing something wrong, or tell you something you’re doing great. And you know, you can’t listen to the accolades and you also can’t listen to the people who want to bring you down. You’ve just got to keep your head down and keep doing the hard work day in and day out.
Donnis: Jennifer Hawkins, the outgoing CEO and president of nonprofit developer, One Neighborhood Builders. It’s always been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.
Hawkins: Thank you so much, Ian.
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There are some sore feelings after state Senator Sandra Cano of Pawtucket resigned shortly after a recent primary. Cano is expected to take a job with the U.S. Small Business Administration and it’s possible details were not worked out right before her resignation. But the elevation of Lori Urso, a former campaign manager for Pawtucket Mayor Don Grebien, sparked some complaints about a closed process. You can read more about that in my TGIF column, posting around 4 this afternoon at the thepublicsradio.org/TGIF and on what used to be known as Twitter @IanDon.
That’s it for our show. Political Roundtable is a production of The Public’s Radio. Our producer is James Baumgartner. I’m Ian Donnis, and I’ll see you on the radio.
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Publish date : 2024-09-19 20:02:00
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